Non-Wicca Witchcraft and the use of gods?

[warlock]

This is a question that I have been thinking about and just want see what others think really. Ok here is where I'm coming from, Witchcraft in and of its self is not (IMO) a religion but a craft and practice that is connected in psychic/other ways to the forces of nature and the energy within humanity. It can be used by any religion in one form or another. So this is my understanding of it, I want to ask how do gods and spirits have a role in witchcraft? and would this make it religious or something ells ? is it more that the witch and spirit/god are on an equal footing or are like teacher and student, but just sharing energy for certain tasks? dose using a god/spirit in a spell make that spell a prayer? hmmm... thats more questions than I thought!

any ideas welcome 

[paulhume]

Well, two cents worth...

You get here into the whole spread of meaning for the term "witchcraft."

Let's leave aside Wicca and its descendants (on both sides of the blanket). Either you have explicit theism, whether the Wiccans involved consider their Gods to be metaphors or actualities. or you have an assumed non-theism which then proceeds to dress up the phenomenal universe as a Deity instead (again, either assigning it a personality or treating as some metaphor for a spiritual insight).

So, witchcraft:
- a spellcraft within a given culture, generally with the connotation or even definition that it is outside the sphere of action permitted by that culture. A Roman priest of the Gods was not - by Roman definitions - a witch. Witchcraft (maleficia, among other terms) was not licensed by the state religion, involved popular and widespread charms like "cursing bowls," illicit astrology (eg. casting a chart for the Imperial family), etc.

- witches in classical Pagan cultures (and this persists in modern cultures which have an active witchcraft belief, from African animism to Shinto to some sects of Buddhism to some sects of Hinduism to Native American tribal religions like that of the Navaho) are not, as a rule, connected with the Gods of those cultures, though sometimes, as in the Christian model of the witch in European history, witches may be associated with the "bad" God or Gods. The witch (using the word as the most obvious rendition of the local word for this kind of magician) is a harmful individual, who uses magical powers to the harm of others and the advancement of their own fortunes. People who have, or claim to have, a mandate from the local religion are involved in countering witchcraft, either in ritual or in social actions. Whether you are talking about the inquisitors, or Matthew Hopkins, or a local witch smeller, or a travelling yamabushi who acts as an exorcist against families using fox or centipede magic on the neighbors, or a Navaho singer working a Way to counter the machinations of a skinwalker, or a mob with torches and pitchforks, the larger culture mobilizes against the witch.

In classical Pagan cultures, or modern ones, identity with the powers of nature (if those are conceived of as separate from the local Gods), and certainly with any kind of Divine power, was not the general sphere of action of the witch. You certainly had, in some cases, individuals who worked in that territory without being members of an established religion. During much of the pagan era in the Scandinavian region, you might proclaim yourself a godhi (God-man) and if your neighbors treated you like one, then you were. Where there was a state religion (Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc.) the local powers that be sharply defined areas that were appropriate for this kind of "private enterprise." An Egyptian who claimed to be a priest of Amon (for example) better have been an officially recognized priest of Amon, or else the local priests of Amon were going to have a brief word with him on the subject, which would move any final decision to the Field of Reeds. But most heads of household had certain areas where they acted in a religious role for their families.  Ditto the Graeco-Roman cultures. A family that maintains a local shrine to the local Kami fulfill a priestly function in Japan, but are not recognized throughout the country as Shinto clergy the way a priest/ess at the Meiji Shrine or the Shrine of Amaterasu at Ise will be.

And calling any of these, in their time or place, by the local word which could most closely be rendered into English as "witch," was at least insulting, probably a fighting word, and potentially a  criminal act punishable in a number of nasty ways.

So if you want to call a body of technique, whether it is a fancy set of theories about magic, or a body of lore for local charms and curses, and ever-filled purses, witchcraft, you are really in the line established by Murray and Gardner (treading in some footsteps laid down by Michelet and others), looking at the proposition that the witch in Christian Europe was a combination of Pagan survival and rebel with a cause. And it is quite safe to do so...in modern Euro-American cultures.

[warlock]

 

That's alot to take in there. hmm... see my confusion comes from my assumption that witchcraft and paganism are separate, but as an example there were gods linked in some way to magic or to witchcraft  eg Hecate or Thoth/ Ptah. would this make witchcraft religious in some way? 

hmmm....

[paulhume]

Thoth and Ptah were not linked to witchcraft in Egypt. Magic yes, especially the magic practiced by the priesthood on behalf of the state, but witchcraft? Nope.

Though - irony - the term used in good old Exodus 22:18 and usually translated "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is m'kesof'ha. Feminine singular form of a word meaning "someone who practices kesof" - kesof being equated with pagan magic. The term used for Pharaoh's magicians earlier in Exodus (the ones who try to counter Moses demonstration turning his staff into a serpent) is m'kesof'im - masculine plural form of the same word. So the Hebrews seem to have equated the witchcraft they were banning in their community with the priestly sorcery of their oppressors.

Modern occultists who work with the Egyptian pantheon have certainly equated the Gods, notably Thoth, with their own efforts. I'm a Thelemite myself and the Book of the Law was written in Egypt, at the prompting of the Gods, as far as Crowley was concerned.

Hecate is certainly linked to pharmakeia, witchcraft, in the classical Greek tradition. with its strong emphasis on wortcunning and potions (viz. their use by Medea). And a lot of modern effort has gone into whitewashing Hekate (along with Eris, Loki, Lilith, et al) but in the mode She was invoked as patron of the Greek witches (like the howling witches ...is it of Thrace or Thessaly?...who give us the term goetia) one wonders if She is in the "Bad God" role.

[seshata]

Personally I don't see (for example) Hecate as either 'Bad' or 'Good'.. A Titeness certainly and associated with magic of different types, but a 'witch' in our modern idea of the word.. hmm  Just as I don't associate Set with being 'bad' either.. They are, imho, necessary, sometimes maybe even reflecting things that we may be uncomfortable with especially in our modern minds.

Certainly there are deities associated with 'magic' of the different styles etc linked to the cultures.  I don't know whether you'd associate them all exactly with the religious aspects, maybe 'folk' customs.  Offerings of different types were given and petitions made certainly.

BB

Seshata

[warlock]

Thoth and Ptah were not linked to witchcraft in Egypt. Magic yes, especially the magic practiced by the priesthood on behalf of the state, but witchcraft? Nope.


I know this has probably been discussed so very many times before but what is the difference between witchcraft and magick? sorry to be a pain I'm just trying to get an understanding?

[paulhume]

Some would answer that there is no difference. As I noted, Exodus uses the same root (kesof or kasaph) for the m'kesof'im that Pharaoh summoned to oppose Moses and the m'kesof'ha that the Hebrews were not supposed to suffer to live.

Still, you look at classical paganism and there are magical acts reserved to a state priesthood, or authorized for the people in general, and acts of magic (malevolent or not) performed outside of the control of the state or state religion. It may just be that "licensed magic" is religion, and "unlicensed magic" is witchcraft in that sense. The line gets blurry in some tribal traditions where a shaman can curse or bless, extort or give charity, and is recognized as a legitimate member of the community. Even if someone uses a special type of wood to break his spells, as Nicholas Harner related.

(A tribe member he knew told him that someone has used the wood of a specific tree to oppose the spells of a notoriusly badass shaman. Harner was curious. "How'd he use the wood? I know there are charms with its leaves and roots, but not the wood." "Oh, he took a big branch that fell down in a storm and smashed him over the head with it.")

The anthropological usage of' witchcraft is magic performed without community sanction, often viewed as malevolent by the community. Magic - well, the term has been around the shop hasn't it. Call it achieving an outcome without apparent physical cause (even if it doesn't work). Modern practitioners try to fill in the gaps with psychological or metaphysical aspects, but leave the transcendental stuff out too, for simplicity's sake. Blessings and curses and ever filled purses. Love and hate achieved by spellcraft. Traffic with spirits (whether bringing them in or kicking them out).

[LORDGLENMORE]

JUST A THOUGHT, HMM, BUT HAS ANYTHING YOU'VE DONE IN THIS LINE EVER WORKED?

[aia]

 My group is gd with crowley influence. I  see horus and set as night and day. I don't celebrete sabbats anymore only equinox's. I'm being very solor in my magick. Everyday i do magick. I'm going to start doing some lunar working. But it won't follow wiccan model of a god and goddess at the same time. One because if i was to invoke the goddess how can i then invoke the god, because theres just me. When i was initiated into the gd and this isn't oathbound as its published in books. Each officer takes on a god form. So self inition would be impossable. Also the egyptions seem more solor then lunar. But having said that they were great at maths so knew the skys.

This is a question that I have been thinking about and just want see what others think really. Ok here is where I'm coming from, Witchcraft in and of its self is not (IMO) a religion but a craft and practice that is connected in psychic/other ways to the forces of nature and the energy within humanity. It can be used by any religion in one form or another. So this is my understanding of it, I want to ask how do gods and spirits have a role in witchcraft? and would this make it religious or something ells ? is it more that the witch and spirit/god are on an equal footing or are like teacher and student, but just sharing energy for certain tasks? dose using a god/spirit in a spell make that spell a prayer? hmmm... thats more questions than I thought!

any ideas welcome  

I see gods and 'demons' as part of your self . Remember reading the chicken quabbala and he said this. When you invoke something out of your self.
magical evocation is merely identifing the specific who accomplishes the task we want to do. then activating the part of the brain that will do it.' He goes onto say that they are subdivisions of our own soul. To me this makes sense to be able to invoke something we have to be have mastered our own demons.That the true magick is doing your true will and self mastery.